EVEN MORE BASIC FUNDAMENTALS
I have written this for Aditya. I believe it addresses some of his concerns.
I never say this enough. Thank you Aditya. You have the great ability to get me angry. I work very hard at extracting the energy and fire of my anger and using it for creative purposes. I still get amateurish splatters on my work, anger spillage, but I try to clean up carefully before calling it a done job. Mahendranath was very skilled at using anger creatively.
What is the point of belonging to a group such as the naths? The first job is to heal and develop one’s personal psychology. We will never be perfect, but we can become functional. At least psychosis is reduced to mild neurosis, one has become alert to the workings and machinations of one’s ego and one is determined to get on with ones life plan. I don’t believe this work can be achieved alone. The very first work of the guru/chela relationship is to reduce and become aware of ego but, lacking competent gurus, we must continually be tossed and turned in the polishing vat, knocking off each others rough edges. First we learn how to manage our own selves, so that we are able to proceed with the very long and difficult work of becoming god. Becoming ego-identified with a guru or cult is delusional. It is a klesha. We are working towards the ability to bear the pure light, no relative concept to rest on, no theory to depend on, complete non-identification. We are supposedly training ourselves to walk naked in the void (or plenum).
We must challenge each other, often and thoughtfully. Scoring points is ego work. Inducing wisdom in a fool is good work. We are all fools, but lets work to help each other see what is so difficult to see. The nose on my face, that which is too close to be visible to me is the proper target for attacks, jeers, gentle pointers. (hahaha my nose is an easy target) The more outrage I feel the more likely the shot has been accurate. (Now that is a useful piece of info if you don’t already know it). Lashing out at one who has just helped you is neurotic and an immediate signal that work needs to be done. We must become functional on these basic psychological levels before we can proceed to the esoteric heights. Know your ego! It is trickier than any magical spell or spirit in the night. It will hold us back more than any lack of intellect, or knowledge or definition, lore or history.
Due to our lack of experienced gurus I propose we take a page out of modern times. Lets get commercial and hire the specific folks that we need. Counsellors and shrinks for our psychological development, Monroe Institute for the technology for astral travel, the Buddhists to develop our meditation skills, various shamans to hone our magical abilities, gypsies for fortune telling and small charms, Gurdjieffians to keep our self-pacifying to a minimum, yogis to teach us relaxation and clean living, and lets get some good musicians in to improve the drumming!
PART 2
Now I wish to discuss basic questions about Naths and our relationship to that name. The Naths in India are ancient and well-known today. They are a large and well-established cult. I know almost nothing about this group. The nath name arrived in the west as an idea of Mahendranath. At first it seemed we were to call ourselves Adinaths but Mahendranath turned against that idea. Mahendranath repeatedly stated that we are not related to the Naths in India because we are not sannyasi. He did not want us to adopt their ideas and practices wholesale. He had already done the sifting and choosing of ideas he considered the true gold embedded in the dross. His claim to being the last Adi Nath was not ego aggrandizement. It was made to reinforce the fact that although we carry the nath name we are not related to the Indian Naths. We honour and receive inspiration from them and their wonderful history by using the Nath name.
We have a core of ideas, which came mostly through Mahendranath, which define us. We cybernath together in order to discuss and develop and experiment and re-define and experience in our own lives the effect of these ideas. Many of the activities of ANS for instance seem to originate far from the original writings. This is an ideal situation for experimentation, testing, research and just plain craziness and excess that provide the rich compost for new understanding to bloom. INO preserves the words of Mahendranath’s writings and presents them, accurately (mostly) and beautifully to the public through the internet. As a member of both these groups I delight in this complementary pair. Very Yin/Yang, Siva/Shakti, Creator/preserver/ destroyer yet to come.
In theory, initiation into the hierarchical, initiatic cult of INO is a deep commitment between guru and chela to work together to achieve god-hood and liberation. This is the classical guru chela relationship which is spelled out very clearly throughout Hindu and Buddhist tradition. This is the ancient tradition, transfer of power and information, a spiritual birth. Initiation into ANS has been offered in a very different spirit. Initiation into ANS is a lucky charm, an indication of interest,a coyote-kiss, a toy, a courtesy. A few of those who have received initiation into this deeply serious, happy-go-lucky nath manifestation have had a reaction of deep spiritual opening. These few have the karmas and I wish them well. You have made a very good start.
I like the liberating term neo-naths. I have used many Indian forms, words, ideas and imagery in the things I have written. I have indulged my own mystical feelings about nath and my personal belief systems abundantly and repeatedly. I must state, that does not make these things objectively, measurably, true. When I describe the Nine Naths as living Beings … this may or may not be taken as objectively true. Readers choose at that moment. This style of writing is meant to be useful on an emotional level. It is part of my toolkit, using my imagination to augment and accelerate the effectiveness of an idea or a situation. Purposely superposing two non-converging ideas upon each other is a skill I am developing as a magician. Not only for flexibility which is crucial, but in order to function in accord with basic quantum principles. I have to live and think and eat these principles. Quantum realms are the magical realms of this age, in my opinion.
Thus, we are a group (or not) of western based spiritual pilgrims unconnected except through Mahendranath with India in any way except a combination of letters that occurs in our name. On the other hand we may also be mystically bound to the ancient and magical cult of the Nine Naths and the mysterious and eternal Wanderers; Gorakshnath and Matsyendranath and Dattatreya who are the guardians of this cult. We fearlessly appropriate the name and do whatever we please with it because we are Naths and that is what we do. I wouldn’t advise pushing the second option too publicly and not at all in India. However it is a splendid tool and should be kept brightly polished in order to propel us into the ancient halls of the nath enlightenment machine, an altered and heightened state of consciousness that is difficult to reach at the best of times. As neo-naths we appropriate these rights to ourselves without compromising the Naths in India in any way.
Hmmm that makes us a non-local entanglement with the Indian Naths, possibly affecting the situation in both directions of time. Nice. Thus by describing, measuring and observing ourselves we affect Indian Naths if only by the comparison between us and them.
The same ideas can be applied to Mahendranath himself. On the one hand he was an adventurous human among many who went into new and unexplored regions. He never returned but he left us with some good maps to find our own adventurous way. His writing is useful and specialized and the ideas are new to us, although they certainly came from Indian ancient sources and were filtered through Mahendranaths consciousness before arriving in our brains. What he did, we can all achieve because it is obviously within the realm of human abilities. I choose to believe that he is an enlightened being and still human, well within the grasp of human endeavour.
There is another wildly unrestrained view of the man. This is how we view our Gurus and heroes and love objects. This is the work of the devotee and devotion which is so full of magical potential as we act in bizarre and unlikely ways in order to fulfill our own idea of the demands of that devotion. We will sacrifice our time, our money, even our life and life energy and purpose in order to propitiate this Ideal Being. This is called BHAKTI. The inspiration and power to understand and learn that comes from that intense love and sympathy with an Ideal Being is enormous and well documented .. again a suitable realm for magicians. The transformative power of identification with a quite possibly non-existent Ideal should not be discarded in an argument over relative objective existence in a taxpaying world. The one view must not negate the other even if they are mutually exclusive.
Calling ourselves Adinaths, against Mahendranath’s express wishes is a possibility. Since there is no proof of the existence of this panth beyond the assertions of a few people (like me, and I don’t mind), we tread on few toes in appropriating this name. Aditya’s proposal to call us Mahendranath sampradaya, despite my jeering is another possibility. I think he means panth though. Sampradaya is the entire cult. We wouldn’t be naths, we would be mahendriastes or perhaps mahendriazzis. Are INO and ANS and AMOOKOS perhaps newly emerging panths? Much of this strikes me as premature. We are very new and young and haven’t shown what we are capable of yet. First steps have not yet been taken in the most basic direction of evolving and training the SELF.
Is any of this useful in reconciling the schismatic tendencies of the western naths? Does any of this alleviate the anxieties of Aditya caused by my unkind merriment at his expense?
Part 3
I cribbed these facile definitions of difficult and obscure quantum physics from “Science” July 1st, 2005. This is the magazine of AAAS, the American Assoc. for Advancement of Science. I make no apologies for constantly encroaching on the territory of quantum science. No use to tell me this only applies to tiny objects, my ideas do not work, are non-scientific and I understand wrongly. I know that already. I am thinking, feeling and acting in a mystic state where “above and below”, “micro and macro”, the “visible and the invisible”, the “true and the could-be” intersect in my head. This stuff actually works in my life. I believe it is the true operating theatre for 21st century magical investigation and experimentation. .. Unless you really are only in it for the love spells!
SUPERPOSITION; an object having 2 mutually exclusive properties at the same time .. until observed or disturbed, at which time the superposition collapses and the object is found to be in one or the other place.
NON-LOCALITY; “entangled” particles that are separated in space but not in time, they affect each other at any distance and may in theory become entangled at a time after they have been observed or measured.
UNCERTAINTY PRINCIPLE; objects’ positions and momenta are “smeary and ill-defined”. Gaining knowledge about one means losing knowledge about the other. Things aren’t IS but, rather, probability waves that become real when observed or measured.
IMPROBABILITY: this definition never came up .. sorry .. it’s my favourite idea of the whole lot.
Wow! what a ‘plastic’ malleable universe. What a thrill! How truly uncertain and improbable!
.
March 22nd, 2006 at 2:54 am
I think some other useful questions are “What is the point of being a nath?” and rather than “What is the point of belonging to a group such as the naths?” I’d prefer to ask what the point is of a nath belonging to a group?
So, what is the point of being a nath?
For me, contact with Mahendranath created recognition of a genuine state of spiritual liberation and happiness achieved through a spiritual discipline. Without personal contact with Mahendra I would probably not be able to have seen the reality of that state with any certainty. I also would not have understood how to get close to it myself. That lesson and experience goes beyond any affection I might have for any other individuals or other group affiliations. And for me, it goes to the heart of what Mahendranath shared with us. When I use my nath name it is those experiences that give its use meaning for me. Without this type of link any reference to a group or lineage risks becoming delusional because of the potential for ego-identification.
It can be argued that collectively the nath sampradaya has produced some far out thinkers and magicians over the centuries. But a lineage is not a factory and for every far out thinker and magician we know, there have probably been some who have chosen invisibility and others who have just been charlatans, fools and crackpots. Beautiful flowers love compost. The key thing has to be for anyone who seeks genuine spiritual experience to look beyond the labels and choose their spiritual guides with discrimination.
What is the point of naths belonging to a group? Groups provide endless opportunities to share experience and support when dealing with very deep self exploration. They also give scope for working with what Mahendranath described as kleshas, kharmas and conditioning. But identification with the group is potentially delusional if the individuals spiritual growth is inhibited by it.
Lalita, I don’t agree with you that there is any need to take a page out of modern times to hire counsellors, shrinks, shamans, and the like for our peoples development? We have enough expertise in our own peer groupings. What we do need is to encourage openness, self reliance, inquisitiveness and discrimination in the world around us. With these qualities many more will achieve inner peace, freedom and happiness in their lives.
I don’t like the term neonath. I think it is better for me to know who helped me to grow, and to honour their memory. To me it is natural for others to do this as well. Surely it is better for those who have attained to remember those who helped them, than for everyone to perpetuate a group name or brand identification that may become a klesha for people to obsess over.
March 22nd, 2006 at 8:31 am
Oh unattached being (avadhooth yogin) I am a yogi from many aeons (yugan)
I don’t come or go nor do I get erased
I relish and enjoy the un-struck Anahat Shabd
In every direction I see only a collection and carnival of me
I am in everybody and everybody is in me. I am utterly alone
I am the Siddha, I am the Samadhi
I am the one who remains silent, I am the one who speaks
The form (rupa) is my own form (svarupa) manifesting the formless (arupa)
I am the one who plays with himself
Kabir says, listen oh Sadhu, there is no conscious will (iccha) anymore
I am floating in myself in my own little hut playing effortlessly by my own will (sahaj swa-ichha)
Kabir
Sorry for my intrusion - please go on slandering each other, accept my excuses if i disturbed you on your path.
Mahahradanatha
March 23rd, 2006 at 9:45 am
Lalitji having read your deleted comment i like to explain why i apologised.
It is my lack of discernment, not your fault or that of anybody else, my apologies are sincere. I anticipated that my approach to “Basic Nath Fundamentals” that i tried to illustrate with the Kabir Doha would in my judgement most probably appear completly alien to the western nath.
March 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pm
Dear Maharadanatha,
I deleted my reply because it was too strong. i just didn’t want you to leave the site. The Kabir Doha IS nath and uses all our key words plus it has that lovely buddhist feel of detachment, plus it sounds like it came out of avadhoota gita. It is truly a delight and a very appropriate choice. Thanks for changing your mind and writing back.
love
lal
March 23rd, 2006 at 3:45 pm
This is the Raktabija /lal discussion which I have pasted over from the bujungi site
> Deviji,
>
> Although you have already stated that it’s “no use” for me to write
> about this quantum stuff, I am still inspired to write about it, only
> because I have studied this physics subject, and even got a degree in
> the whole thing, although that by itself means very little.
>
> The quantum physics theories apply to small particles, even smaller
> than atoms, and you have already stated this. However, even the
> theories themselves are at best approximations. Due to our inability
> to measure things at the tiny level of these particles, things become
> hazy and hard to determine such as size, movement, etc.; thus giving
> rise to these “weird” theories. In truth, they are there only to fill
> in the holes in the math, and cover up for the broken old theories
> that fall apart in light of new observation. This fancy stuff looses
> all it’s glamour the moment you see the experiments leading to these
> theories, and what the scientists are trying to do.
>
> I think the ideas by themselves are fine, but when taken out of
> context they lose their intended meaning. Although this stuff sounds
> really cool, the practical application, especially use in sadhana are
> something I am yet to see. They are applicable in the new age
> industry as a decent advertisement campaign, but that is a totally
> different story.
>
> It’s like talking about doing computer programming with a piece of
> twig. Yes, stretching it, I guess you can still do it, by pressing
> the buttons on a keyboard using the twig; that’s not only giving the
> branch undue merit, but also ignoring to pay attention to the computer
> to learn its secrets.
>
> Anyway, these are just my opinions; they seem to come and go.
I hope you don’t mind if I post this whole thing to my site to make it easier for folks to follow along.
This is not a discussion about science, but rather science and magic, two old friends that have been estranged over the past century or so. I find quantum “language” very expressive of the magical world as I perceive it. Dadaji calls his knowledge “sandya” meaning twilight. This is the time of day which is most visually indistinct, the essence of “could be this, could be that”. If that stick is perceived as a snake does it have any true snake properties or functions if the magician who perceives makes a small shift and adjustment? Does the energy release of the panicked and mistaken observer count for anything? Certainly there has been an energetic shift, if not a material one. The scream carries a message to any who are nearby…there is a rustling, a startled reshifting. This is so visible in the constant movement of birds. That stick has caused a snake type of energy movement. For a moment it really doesn’t matter whether it is one thing or the other, a certain reaction characteristic of a snake sighting has occurred. This is the magical realm of smoke and mirrors.
I am approaching Quantum ideas intuitively, which is funny because it is often referred to as counter-intuitive. Am I simply taking words, stripping off their true meaning and then re-packing them with my own significance .. like the word Tantra has been stripped of its original meaning and repackaged as sex for sale? I may have to accept this verdict, but I will choke for a while. Isn’t there an “as if” clause in science? Act “as if” it was true, “as if” humans are wee particles? I have used the “as if” principle very successfully in my life. I believe it is also known as the “fake it till you make it” principle, in unscientific circles.
Useful in sadhana .. I point out its usefulness constantly when I write. I believe and say often, that the quantum world, quantum ideas are the field of enquiry and experiment and operation for
magicians. All that uncertainty is so healthy and hard to find in our concrete and paper world. Superposition is yoga for the mind and leads to a much stronger and more flexible brain. Perhaps not a correct brain however! Non-locality reminds me that there is much more to relationship than meat.
In order to imagine humans as tiny objects place yourself in a satellite. You use lots of math to observe us tiny things interacting. You see two objects have met. They separate. You apply an observation to object A. Your observation has an effect. The “entangled objects” are non-local. Object B which is now at the other end of the planet reacts. Well, yeah. Mother and child, lovers, colleagues, whatever, they used the telephone, as yet unobserved by you, or more subtly the ties of love and sympathy will also cause reaction of two related beings at any distance, “as if they {two particles which are entangled} mystically communicate.” This is called non-intuitive. Seems pretty intuitive to me.
Now superposition. I believe Buddha boy is Buddha or I believe he is a peasant con artist. These are two mutually exclusive possibilities and properties attributable to the same being. If at any time I can’t hold those two mutually exclusive ideas in my mind and I come up with a decision (failure of my yoga usually), the superposition in my head collapses and through my observation, choice, interference, it falls to one choice or the other. I now see and act as if Buddha boy is one thing or the other. It is all in my mind however. Now get a thousand people with the same superposition in their heads and most of them come down on the side of con man. He can no longer function as Buddha even if he actually started out as a Buddha. Or else he is Buddha in a Nepali jail cell. On the other hand, a village con artist who is now proclaimed by thousands as a Buddha may very well begin to operate as one. (it could happen, I think it happens often)
The one that I find most useful and was the actual topic of Chapter 6:Choices is improbability. Nothing is entirely sure, it is probable. Probability is a cluster. The less probable an event, the farther out it is parked on the outskirts of the cluster in what I call the Improbability Fields. Here the strange is normal, synchronicity is the order of the day. I believe that wisdom, liberation, enlightenment, panoramic view, creativity, humour .. these are all best found in the strange zones of improbability. By acting improbably you enter these zones. The radio starts talking to you .. always my first clue that I have arrived. The example I use in Chapter 6 is Mahendranath and his very weird life choices. His life, in my mind is a wildly successful monument to weirdness by careful selection. A London born lad ends up as an enlightened naked Nath in India…. go figure! Each choice he made led him farther and farther from his expected outcome or destiny in the dense cluster of family, tradition, culture, civilization … and nearer and nearer to a lonely and singular life of the unexpected, unpredictable, unlikely and finally the miraculous. Can siddhis have any other source? Can magicians find a better home?
So, have I made any sense to anybody else yet? Not too much mind you. Sense is the death of magic.
March 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pm
This is the Daimonos/lal discusssion which I am posting over from nath googlegroups
lal
I find it hard to converse on a weblog where I’m not notified by email
of responses to threads. I only just noticed your March 14th comment,
“Planetary reset is the theory that when we reach enough density of
novelty the poles reverse and we all start back at zero.” More mumbo
jumbo. What poles reverse - the earth’s magnetic poles? Absurd.
Your comments in part 3 again have exact qabalistic correspondences. As
AC wrote, “For above the abyss, it is said, [an] idea is only true in
so far as it contains its contradictory in itself.”
(http://www.aleistercrowley.com/books_online/eight_lectures/part6.html)
The “Abyss” on the tree of life separates the first three sephira from
the rest. There’s lots of rubbish written about it. Manifestation is
said to begin with the concrete 4, Chesed. 1, 2 and 3 are unmanifest,
spiritual, abstract. As you wrote, they’re a state in which “above
and below”, “micro and macro”, the “visible and the
invisible”, the “true and the could-be” intersect.
1 - a point. No dimensions.
2 - a line. One dimension.
3 - a triangle. In geometry enough points to define a plane. Two
dimensions.
4 - a cube. In geometry, anough points to define a volume. Three
dimensions and the beginning of manifestation.
See http://jktarot.com/naples.html - a bit flashy, but a good effort.
Best laid out, again, in the Book of Thoth.
Overall not a bad job on the quantum mechanics. Your quote is right: a
quantum superposition lasts until “observed or disturbed, at which time
the superposition collapses and the object is found to be in one or the
other place.” The Nine Naths end up believed real or imaginary, living
or dead. The bit about “superposing two non-converging ideas … in
order to function in accord with basic quantum principles” is still
just waffle, a mixture of metaphors.
Entanglement is wondrous strange and hard to explain in a few minutes
grabbed from a working day. Uncertainty principle a little easier.
First off, know or recall that ‘waves’ and ‘particles’ are just
different, partial ways of describing things. A ray of light can be
treated as an electromagnetic wave, but also as a beam of ‘photons’,
tiny particle-like packets of energy. A beam of electrons may equally
be made to act like a wave, giving rise to interference patterns and
the like.
Anyway. Imagine a small particle travelling from left to right in front
of us. How can we know it’s there? Well, we shine a light on it, right?
Now that light is in one way a beam of photon particles. These bounce
off the thing we’re looking for and come back to us: we only ’see’ it
by looking for the reflected photons. But as each photon whacks into
the particle we’re looking for, it disturbs it, knocks it around, like
looking for one billiard ball by whacking it with others. The crazy
thing is, that the more we try to pin down just where the first
particle is, the more we knock it around by looking for it. We can’t
look for anything without disturbing it, and so there are limits to
certainty about where something is, where it’s going, how fast it’s
travelling, and the like. The uncertainty principle arises from the
hard math beneath this fuzzy explanation.
Entanglement another time. Good show, yes we’re reading it, but truly
it’s a pain to discuss on yer blog. Maybe I’ll x-post this later.
Daimonos,
Your letters have finally been given the proper attention I wished to give them. I am ignorant of the western tradition and I have no connection with Crowley except Dadaji, who quite liked him and was certainly grateful for the effect his good advice had on Dadaji’s life choices. Imagine using Crowley as your mentor, in the midst of the libel trial that ruined him.
So I followed your wonderful, detailed correspondences and mapped them onto the Tree. This is a lovely study. I did the same thing for a while with the IChing. I used colours to map the flow of trigrams and hexagrams .. anyway I do have a love of carefully mapping systems and trying to match them up.. I never could! The work slowly lead to painting. Now I look for systems in tree branch formations and clouds and happily paint landscapes searching for a more abstract expression..
This Kabbala is a lifetime study and I won’t start it at this age. However, I read it like poetry or even more like listening to Mozart. The organizing principle..I mostly avoid it now. My motto is “Disperse and Disorganize” after all. I really do need to get a better set up on this website where I can archive some of the info rich mail that comes through occasionally…and as you say, notifiction would be a nice thing to find. I am not at all savvy in these matters…I don’t even know what to ask for .. that is why its being done piecemeal. Give me time.. or give me advice!
Some specifics: Magic defined as descent, lightening strike, manifestation, will. This is an older, other way of looking at magic. I have never gone with the WILL stuff. I find magic to be more about harmonizing, aligning, intuition, placement, and very purified intent occasionally. Everything else will bring on the problems associated with using the will to affect the world. Karmic blowback if you will permit that shorthand term.
Where you say I am waffling with “superposing two non-converging ideas in order to function in accord with basic quantum principle.” I concede and change that second part to using superposition as mental yoga and as an unusual technique for observation.
The billiard ball image as the effect of observation (just great image!)… well just this morning as I was drinking my coffee I noticed otters cavorting in a small melted corner of the pond. They ignored me, as do the birds.. right up until I augment my observation with binoculars or a camera. They immediately detect my observation and run for cover. Annoying but that is the effect of observing wildlife with tools. Damn!
Love
lal
March 24th, 2006 at 6:42 am
I did have to smile at the otters running for cover. You write,
“I have never gone with the WILL stuff. I find magic to be more about harmonizing, aligning, intuition, placement, and very purified intent occasionally. Everything else will bring on the problems associated with using the will to affect the world. Karmic blowback if you will permit that shorthand term.”
I’m reminded in your stories of the day you spent following the old guy who just floated from one encounter to the next, light as dandelion fluff, carried on the wind. That said I’m shaking my head, grimacing at “the problems associated with using the will to affect the world.” Heh. Well, we’re on different paths. On mine, “Thou hast no right but to do thy will. Do that and no other shall say nay.” It’s a key tenet of my belief and praxis: discover, know and do thy will. Now if it’s to tread lightly on the world, fine. If it’s to build towering monuments, move mountains or peoples, or just earn a living and feed the family, then well and good as well.
You’ve termed magic as intuition and alignment; I as self-expression, purpose, intent. Different definitions, of course. To the extent yours is ‘newer’… well, is that ‘newer = better’ or ‘newer = immature?’ lol I’m only teasing.
– Daimonos
March 24th, 2006 at 7:39 am
Hi Daimonos,
I think we may be talking about a yin yang (with dots in place) kind of situation with these two different approaches to magic. Your picture of karmic blowback was amusing ( ref.a note on nath googlegroups) I am not made for the towering moving of mountains or even feeding a family. Crowley’s end may be an example of the blowback I mentioned. Of course once you have succeeded as wildly as he did at so much, what does a sad ending matter to him. He certainly is the perfect voice for the aggressive path in magick.
I am working in the dark, by sense of feel and smell when I describe my views about magic. I have observed it many times. I was at an outdoor ceremony with Kalu Rimpoche. I noticed a triple rainbow in a circle around the sun. ” Oh that always happens when Kalu is working” ..not that he did anything, it was associated with him. I complained to Dadaji about my prolonged bouts with depression that had plagued me my whole life. “You get depressed? Thats odd.” And that was the end of that. I never experienced pathological depression again. He was surprised when I thanked him a few years later. “Oh, you got better. Good for you” He took and felt no credit. I associated the cure with him. When I try to shoe-horn quantum phrases into magic it is because all that uncertainty, fuzziness, this and that, this or that, it all suits my view of what is going on so very well. So your approach and mine are related but different and probably quite complementary..but please watch out for that blowback I mentioned.
love
lal
March 24th, 2006 at 7:02 pm
I like to comment on this doha and why i choose it as a response to your text,
Oh unattached being (avadhooth yogin) I am a yogi from many aeons (yugan)
Commentary:
This doha is playing with the words yogi and yuga, the avadhootha yogi being the one is free of the cycle of time and change and the yuga (aeon) is the term denoting great cycles. A yogi that exists in a state beyond time and independent of the changes of the yugas is without need for legitimization or identification. On the contrary any identification or legitimization would be an obstacle to achive the state of an avadhoota. When considering and discussion the Nath Sampradaya it should be kept in mind that ultimately reaching the state of an avadhootha is the goal of any nath individual. Though he cannnot reach this goal alone and without a Guru and must receive inspiration, knowledge and iniitiation from past masters it is his own effort that is decisive for the final outcome.
I don’t come or go nor do I get erased.
Commentary:
In this state there is no sampradaya the avadhootha is not subject to the three times past present future (watch out for links with the Quantum mechanics discussion)
I relish and enjoy the un-struck Anahat Shabd
Commentary:
Now the attention moves to the “door to liberation” the Anahat Shabd or Nada the unstruck sound not produced by any instrument or voice thats why it is called unstruck. The existence beyond decay and reincarnation, is achived by realising the sound body, also called mantra body that unlike the physical or astral bodies, is immortal. Achieving the immortal body is a high aim of the Nath Sampradaya.
In every direction I see only a collection and carnival of me.
Commentary:
This is non localised consciousness used to generate immortality in a distinct foetal focus , the center of the 10 directions of space, this is the alpha ovule it is the focus both localited and non localized appearing in the zonule on the Asana. Achievement of the union of what you are and the outside world is either by collapsing the universe infinitly small or extending it infinitly wide. This is Attachment/Aversion transmuting to infinite Absorption/Projection. (watch for links with the Quantum mechanics discussion) One could have the impression that Kabir stops with enlightment (non localized consciousness) and the rest is my addition but he is not, this can be seen in the last verses.
I am in everybody and everybody is in me. I am utterly alone
Commentary:
The result of Absorption/Projection. The weapons symbolising the rule over these processes are held in the Hands of some Hindu deities these are the noose and the elephant goad (skt.pasha / ankusha)
I am the Siddha, I am the Samadhi
Commentary:
The difference between the state (samadhi) and its experiencer(Siddha) vanishes.
I am the one who remains silent, I am the one who speaks
Commentary:
Both the latent universe as well as the emanated (in the form of deities and mantras) is present in the Siddha and the subject/object union (Samadhi). There are magic implications, but usually Siddhas iinvolved in that process are ocuppied with matters more urgent than practicing magic, (watch for links with the Quantum mechanics and multiverses discussion)
The form (rupa) is my own form (svarupa) manifesting the formless (arupa)
Commentary:
Rupa is the form that can be touched and seen, swarupa the essential true form, arupa the formless. These are the three different refinend grades of the immortal body from form to formlessness. Kabir says that these are not independent and in in an independt stae subject to desintegration by time, but that the Avadhootha yogi is able to unify them into a body of even higher order, this unifaction gives the yogi the ability to appear in any form he wishes and immortalise even the form body.
I am the one who plays with himself
Commentary:
He is not subject to the lila (Play) of Maya anymore, since he has become one with Shakti. (rupa= shakti, swaropa= shiva, arupa= shiva shakti samarasya or sunya)
Kabir says, listen oh Sadhu, there is no conscious will (iccha) anymore
Commentary:
This is the grace (anugraha) of Shiva after having given up yourself by an act of offering or submission (iswarapranidham) the ego (ahamkara) individual will ceases also by itself. iccha shakti= the universal creative desire/urge giving rise to maya is transmuted into sahaja sveccha shakti, effortless self will (without urge or desire)
I am floating in myself in my own little hut playing effortlessly by my own will (sahaj swa-ichha)
Commentary:
The state of union with the complete independence and creativity of Shiva Shakti Samarasa arises spontaneously after giving up ego effort, it is achived while staying in the individual human body (little hut), not by merging into a greater unity after death. This is the aim of the siddhas and nathas. Normal people die and desintegrate, physical body returning to elements, astral bodies to energy
self/mental bodies merging into universality. The parts are mixed cleanend recycled and by natural attraction/aversion the parts randomly reasssemble to form a new composite. The common belief that reincarnation means that a constant entity can experience heaven or hell and rebirth and after several rounds achieve liberation is a trap. The message of the Nath Panth is different: It is liberation while alive : That is now you have to become immortal, otherwise you die. Remember what our great grandfather G.I Gurdijeff said: “Men is asleep in a house on fire”
Sorry for my intrusion…
Commentary:
Afterraeding the doha one immediately realises what the state of an avadhotha is and the amount of effort that is needed to achive the aims of such a Siddha thats why one immediately stops discussing who is a legit nath and who is not, with the effect that the wave of the blessing of whatever line of Gurus one is devoted to, is not interrupted.
Mahahradanatha
March 24th, 2006 at 9:15 pm
Vishvabhai, Nathji,
Thank you for your perceptive comments.
I agree that contact with Mahendranath was pivotal for me and any others that were there and able to bear his presence. I wrote somewhere else that contact with an enlightened being is crucial because unless you see it how can you become it? Unfortunately here among the north american naths we have little contact with enlightenment, far out gurus or even the far out euros. Infighting is the name of the game, although it may be coming to an end as I perceive a self devouring going on and that is a short process, I hope. We are in groups, kind of, mostly internet groups and I hope we are generating enough effort and heat to effect some change and growth. Once that happens, enough energy is generated by our efforts, we will start to attract what and who we need.
I was kind of joking about farming out the guru work..but again under the circumstances it might be necessary for a while…we do not have enough people here who are able to help with much.
Neo naths…I feel that one day the Indian naths are going to get computers and then they are going to be very pissed off at foreigners who use their name and not under Indian control or even reading from the same book let alone page. My only reason for using such a term is to keep us free from too much influence and lawsuits. I may be paranoid here.
I never mention the euros when I write because I simply don’t know enough and I would hate to tread on sore toes by accident. I was very inspired by the work of so many of them. Mike Magee has left a tremendous legacy, and some of the most attained are in Europe. Eventually, I hope we will be in much more contact..especially when our house here is finally in working order. There are some really marvelous up and comers around here. I am very pleased with the discussion on this website in the past week, intelligence and passion and energy have finally lit up the pages. ..and this last one from Mahahradanatha..well I am blown away. He has just taken things to a whole older level.
Stay in touch. I am going to Europe this year, maybe early summer. I want to spend some time with Ramesh. The Patels are a resource that seems to have been forgotten by me, at least. And yet they are some of the most knowlegeable people around on the secret life of Dadaji. He always had the greatest appreciation and respect for them..they are special. So if you will be heading that way, or this way, let me know.
Thanks for writing. I appreciate your opinions and your experience tremendously
love
lal
March 24th, 2006 at 9:39 pm
Mahahradanatha,
The doha is beautiful. Your analysis has split it open and made it gemlike and useful. It has been a long time since I read something like this and it gives me chills and horripilations. I know nothing of most of this. The part on Anahat Shabd..the bodies, both disintegrating and immortal..I am unaware of any of this. The doha nonetheless inspires me to work more, with more urgency..relaxed urgency of course. The connections that you make to the discussion of quantum ideas is great! There it is in ancient, ancient words. Our mundane attitudes to names and positions is the klesha that holds all north american nathdom back from finally facing what the we are really here to do..oh thank you for this clarity. The nature of the avadhoot and how to achieve that nature is the only worthy activity of any nath, but it is so hard to hold that ideal in full attention.
I bow to you strange foreign Nathji, demon eater and all, and I thank you for what you have written. I will now get out some tattoo needles and tattoo this doha on the inside of my skull.
ALAKH NIRANJAN api ap
lal
March 25th, 2006 at 6:09 pm
Come here and see me in person, Lalita. I’ll show you the far out enlightement guru. It’s not incompatible with wanting others to tell the truth.
March 25th, 2006 at 7:07 pm
Is that an invitation to Austin? You have a far out enlightenment guru? I have been wondering who your guru is. Sure..when?
lal
July 22nd, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Oh I am the Guru of Aditya! Lo and behold the enlightened Vaisvata Manu. Come Oh Goddess Lalita
and I shall reveal to you the secrets of the 50 faces.
January 18th, 2007 at 1:53 pm
i will tell u about nath !
Name of navnath
1)Machinder Nath
2)Nag Nath
3)jalanderNath
4)Raived Nath
5)Gorakh Nath
6)Charpati Nath
7)Gavi Nath
8)Brathhari Nath
9)Chadham Nath
yai subhi nav nath hai in sabhi guru dathguru hai in navnath kai allva in sabhi nath nai aur bhi chailay banayai vo sabhi 84Sidh kahalayai inmai sai kuch nath agoori bhi hai jasay nagnath
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:54 pm
thanks for this list of the Nine Naths…I have only the one list and this is very welcome..why don’t you post it to the Forum..it will be lost here and few people will see it..I may post it for you.
lal